The K-21's are now loaded in the container and are set to sail from Bremerhaven 18 Dec. The expected ETA in Toronto is 3 Jan!
Wednesday, December 17, 2008
Monday, December 15, 2008
K-21 Progress Report
Saturday, December 06, 2008
Fall's surprising Ontario soaring conditions: Santa Came in November
This time of year - November and December - glider pilots are not thinking about planning soaring flights. For me, the main reason to check the weather is to determine the ski conditions ... not to plan my next flight.
However, on the last Saturday in November, I had an amazing 2 hour flight in SOSA's Puchacz with Vlada Dekina. During the flight I was forced to:
- think about cross country tactics
- practice debugging issues in the cockpit, and
- we had a lot of fun in the process!
This all happened at the end of November ... when there was snow on the ground.
On the Wednesday before the flight, I was checking the weather and I didn’t have my hopes up about flying on the weekend. The Pennsylvania Ridges - a few hours' drive south of SOSA and a favourite club hangout - weren’t going to be working and the local WX for SOSA was going to be just above zero. I assumed the runway would be too soft for a flight operation.
However, Mount St. Louis had 18 ski runs open.
Fortunately, Dave Springford sent out an e-mail just before the weekend saying there was going to be a flying operation on Saturday. I decided to head out to SOSA because there will be plenty of time to ski in the next few months. Dave’s e-mail prompted a lot of others to come out. So the club activity was vibrant for November.
When Pat O’Donnell landed, I got a briefing on the conditions. He was up for 45 minutes and reported lift, but heavy sink in the circuit. The sky was looking good when we took off and I was getting excited about the possibilities. While Al Grant was towing us, I noticed a cloud street from St. George towards Woodstock. My first thought was to recall who at the club would be able to act as a retrieve crew. The cloud street was looking great. In the 30 km I could see, four flat, dark spots looked like they were working. I was sure we could make it to Woodstock. (Remember - this is the end of November) We released before St George and Vlada took us to the cloud street.
At first, I had a really rough time assessing the lift. The audio vario in the front of the Puchacz was not in sync with my vario in the back seat. It showed the correct direction, but was wildly optimistic. Then I realized my vario was calibrated in metres per second; the audio vario infront was calibrated in knots. This wasn’t a problem because I did the conversion from m/s to knots. (multiply m/s x2) However, something was still wrong. It was good that Vlada was flying because I could spend time on this issue to figure out what was wrong. Eventually, I used the altimeter to determine the audio vario was not working correctly. It said we were going up and the altimeter said we were going down.
During this time I was still in Woodstock mode. So, I was also looking at the ground to see what the fields looked like to determine what the land out conditions would be like. Most of the fields were dark black and looked like they would be really muddy. The other fields still had corn in them. But, I was still in Woodstock mode because … “over there” was the wide highway of clouds with thermals working and I just couldn’t resist the urge to go for it. But I was still in the phase of assessing the conditions - so we did not head out on course yet. The next thing I realized was that the sun was in my eyes for half the thermal and the other half I was in the shade. That meant the sun was low in the sky. (The first time this happened to me – long ago - I didn’t pick up on the importance of this sign. As a result, I met a really nice farmer and I learned how to de-rig in the dark.)
Now it was time to change gears. Woodstock and back was not going to happen. So I settled in for a nice local soaring flight. Vlada was doing all the work and I sat back and enjoyed the flight. I might have felt guilty about making her do all the flying, but given the smile on her face I don’t think she minded.
At one point we spotted a flock of gulls and they weren’t flapping their wings. Vlada was able to get 6 knots, taking us from around 3000 feet to +4000 in no time.
At this point I was really amazed at the conditions. The cloud formation was nothing like I had seen before. Looking at the horizon, it appeared we were at cloud base, but the seagulls were much higher. I’m guessing one of the gulls was another 300-400’ above us, but I thought we were at base. Maybe the core was so strong that it pushed the cloud higher in the center and the edges were at a lower altitude?
Eventually, we had to stop thermaling because my stomach couldn’t handle boring holes into the sky anymore. We headed east to another street. Vlada was able to connect and we flew about 5km past the tanks (to the east of SOSA). Getting back was interesting. Vlada flew back in the same street flying slowly. With the head wind, it appeared we were hovering for the longest time. It was as if the tanks were a big magnet and they wouldn’t let go of us.
Finally, we made it back without the assistance of a ground crew. We travelled from SOSA to St. George, then travelled east past the tanks, and returned. The flight was a little over two hours and it was one of the 'funnest' flights I had this year.
After the aircraft were packed back into the hanger, everyone headed to the club house to enjoy the warmth of the fireplace and a beer while we listened to the flying stories of the day.
Andrew Corrigan
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Is the season over?
Now that the fall work weekend is finished and the windsock is down, you might think the flying season is over - but its not. As long as the runways are relatively clear of snow and there are people who want to fly, we can continue flying throughout the winter.
On Sunday 23 Nov all of these conditions were met and out came the Puchacz and Citabria for a little bit of flying in the snow - if you have not yet tried - it is lots of fun.
On Sunday 23 Nov all of these conditions were met and out came the Puchacz and Citabria for a little bit of flying in the snow - if you have not yet tried - it is lots of fun.
Tuesday, November 04, 2008
Ridge, Thermal, Rotor and Wave: Pennsylvania, USA!
Joerg Stieber, fresh from a trip to Ridge Soaring Gliderport in Julian, Pennsylvania, sent his story and photos.
Wave cloud in Pennsylvania. Bald Eagle Ridge can be seen at the left of the image:
Juliet Sierra headed north on Bald Eagle Ridge:
Every year in spring and fall, glider pilots from the eastern US and central Canada converge on the Ridge Soaring Gliderport in central Pennsylvania. Ususally, there is a good contingent of SOSA pilots present. Last weekend I felt I had to get away from it all, so on Sunday afternoon, Oct 26, I hitched up JS for the six hour drive to the Ridge.
Monday started out as a clear thermal day with thermal averages of 4 kts to 5600. Later in the afternoon, conditions got weak as an overcast pushed in from the south, cutting off the sunlight.
Tuesday was the most amazing Ridge day I have ever experienced. The sky was completely overcast with low wet cu racing across the ridges. The wind was strong and the direction was ideal. When I released from tow at the top of the Ridge I couldn't believe the turbulence. The SN-10 showed a wind speed of 43 kts at Ridgetop - no wonder! While I was trying to decide whether to land or continue flying, ridge lift and rotors carried the glider up the cloud base at 4000 ft. Further up, the turbulence was a bit more tolerable and I decided to stick it out for a few hours. The prospect of diving down into the valley to land in these conditions wasn't really appealing either. Snow and rain showers rolling in over the Allegheny Plateau made it impossible to go very far. Over Altoona I contacted wave and climbed to 6000. It was wonderful to rest in the silky smooth air of the wave. I was just high enough to take a peek over the tops of the lowest cloud layer and to see blue sky in the distance to the SW. It didn't take long until the wave window below started to close, so it was time for a full dive brake descent to get under the clouds and also back into the turbulence. The ideal wind speed for the Ridge is 25 kts. At over 40 kts the speed one can achieve is not only limited by the turbulence but also by the crab angle of 30 degrees one has to maintain in order not to get blown into the lee of the Ridge. Even with indicated airspeeds in the 80 to 90 kts range, the speed over ground was rarely above 60 kts.
I landed after 4 hrs and 370 OLC (Online Contest)) km - "shaken, not stirred", to use Jerzy Szemplinski's words.
On Wednesday strong and incessant lake effect (Lake Erie) snow made flying impossible. There was a heavy winterstorm warning in Clearfield on the plateau.
Thursday was a beautiful day. Terry McElligott in JT had joined the Ridge Runners. Reliable ridge lift In the morning made a quick run up to Jersey Shore easy. Down in Altoona the wave worked again up to 7500 ft. As the day went on, the wind and ridge lift diminished but the thermals were plenty and reliable. Like most pilots, I landed early to pack up and make my way home.
Looking back, these were great four days:
Flew three out of four days; over 12 hrs flying time and 965 km OLC.
Joerg Stieber (JS)
Rigging on the Ridge Soaring Gliderport:
Wave cloud in Pennsylvania. Bald Eagle Ridge can be seen at the left of the image:
Juliet Sierra headed north on Bald Eagle Ridge:
Every year in spring and fall, glider pilots from the eastern US and central Canada converge on the Ridge Soaring Gliderport in central Pennsylvania. Ususally, there is a good contingent of SOSA pilots present. Last weekend I felt I had to get away from it all, so on Sunday afternoon, Oct 26, I hitched up JS for the six hour drive to the Ridge.
Monday started out as a clear thermal day with thermal averages of 4 kts to 5600. Later in the afternoon, conditions got weak as an overcast pushed in from the south, cutting off the sunlight.
Tuesday was the most amazing Ridge day I have ever experienced. The sky was completely overcast with low wet cu racing across the ridges. The wind was strong and the direction was ideal. When I released from tow at the top of the Ridge I couldn't believe the turbulence. The SN-10 showed a wind speed of 43 kts at Ridgetop - no wonder! While I was trying to decide whether to land or continue flying, ridge lift and rotors carried the glider up the cloud base at 4000 ft. Further up, the turbulence was a bit more tolerable and I decided to stick it out for a few hours. The prospect of diving down into the valley to land in these conditions wasn't really appealing either. Snow and rain showers rolling in over the Allegheny Plateau made it impossible to go very far. Over Altoona I contacted wave and climbed to 6000. It was wonderful to rest in the silky smooth air of the wave. I was just high enough to take a peek over the tops of the lowest cloud layer and to see blue sky in the distance to the SW. It didn't take long until the wave window below started to close, so it was time for a full dive brake descent to get under the clouds and also back into the turbulence. The ideal wind speed for the Ridge is 25 kts. At over 40 kts the speed one can achieve is not only limited by the turbulence but also by the crab angle of 30 degrees one has to maintain in order not to get blown into the lee of the Ridge. Even with indicated airspeeds in the 80 to 90 kts range, the speed over ground was rarely above 60 kts.
I landed after 4 hrs and 370 OLC (Online Contest)) km - "shaken, not stirred", to use Jerzy Szemplinski's words.
On Wednesday strong and incessant lake effect (Lake Erie) snow made flying impossible. There was a heavy winterstorm warning in Clearfield on the plateau.
Thursday was a beautiful day. Terry McElligott in JT had joined the Ridge Runners. Reliable ridge lift In the morning made a quick run up to Jersey Shore easy. Down in Altoona the wave worked again up to 7500 ft. As the day went on, the wind and ridge lift diminished but the thermals were plenty and reliable. Like most pilots, I landed early to pack up and make my way home.
Looking back, these were great four days:
Flew three out of four days; over 12 hrs flying time and 965 km OLC.
Joerg Stieber (JS)
Rigging on the Ridge Soaring Gliderport:
Sunday, October 26, 2008
Al Schreiter
SOSA has received the following news from the family of Al Schreiter:
A long time member of SOSA , Al Schreiter, died on Oct 24, 2008 at Trillium Health Centre,Misissauga.
My dad and I were both members of SOSA in the 70's and 80's. He was Canadian Team Manager when they went to France in 1978(?) and was a director at SOSA for many years.
The family will receive visitors at the Turner and Porter Funeral Home, Hurontario St, Mississauga on Wed Oct 29 from 2-3 PM, followed by a memorial service and reception.
Reinhart Schreiter
A long time member of SOSA , Al Schreiter, died on Oct 24, 2008 at Trillium Health Centre,Misissauga.
My dad and I were both members of SOSA in the 70's and 80's. He was Canadian Team Manager when they went to France in 1978(?) and was a director at SOSA for many years.
The family will receive visitors at the Turner and Porter Funeral Home, Hurontario St, Mississauga on Wed Oct 29 from 2-3 PM, followed by a memorial service and reception.
Reinhart Schreiter
Thursday, October 23, 2008
Solos! Solos! Licences!
Above: congratulations to Diane Maloney, seen here shortly after her first solo on the SZD Junior sailplane. SOSA congratulates Neil Wilson, Mike Kinsner, and Poul Hansen on having obtained their Glider Pilot Licences. Here's Poul, about to do his Flight Test with instructor Scott McMaster:
Kasper Wabinski, shown above , is one of SOSA's newest solo pilots, is the latest to get the famous First Solo Flight initiation. Igor Ratnikov, below, gets the treatment on the same weekend!
Tuesday, October 21, 2008
Bronze Badge Clinic
Pictures taken from the ground at Ken Chute's field beside Puslinch Lake
Andrea towing the last glider out on Sunday
Vlada on final approach
Vlada touching down
John preparing to launch back to SOSA
Ryan on Short final
Matt on final
Matt and Andrew watching as the next glider arrives at Chute's field
Diane on Final
Dale on Final
Dale just after touchdown
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
Congratulations to SOSA's newest solo pilot, Rafael Nunes. He joined SOSA this year and dedicated his time to learning to fly. These photographs show the sequence from getting ready for his first solo flight, his approach and landing, walking the wing of the L-23 Blanik back to the flight line after the flight, and then ... once again, the traditional aviator's baptism of a proper dunking with a bucket of cold H2O.
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Paul fish profiled in the papers
Most SOSA members know Paul Fish. Paul has been a big part of SOSA for several years, ever since he arrived at the field one day, signed up and immediately became involved. He's served on our board of directors, been bitten by the cross-country bug, and he's the man who began the SOSA blog.
Recently, the Toronto Sun newspaper profiled Paul, regarding his volunteer commitment in Africa. Read the full article here.
Monday, September 22, 2008
Solo is a team effort
Getting a student ready to complete a successful first solo takes dedication from both the student and instructors.
Sunday September 21 played host to a successful first solo which was the combined effort of over a half dozen people. James' wife and family provided support while Dave Springford towed with GDK. Dianne Maloney drove the Gator during the retrieve while Neil Wilson ensured James Stang was in correct position. Joe Stubbs distracted James with an empty bucket long enough for John Brenan to sneak up from behind and drench him with water. The whole event was expertly captured by James's daughter.
We cannot leave out James Stang who although somewhat nervous has joined an elite group of people who have taken to the skies on their own.
James Stang was preceded by Martin Camenietzki and Chris Day for a total of 8 solos this year at SOSA.
Wednesday, September 17, 2008
Super Tuesday
Wednesday, September 10, 2008
Solo flights at SOSA
Congratulations to Diane Maloney, who carried out her first solo. In the left photo, Diane is about to touch down at the end of her first solo flight. In the right image she's getting the customary graduation ceremony in the world of flying, which involves a bucket of water.
Solid congratulations also go to Martin Camenietzki, who soloed the same weekend!
Solid congratulations also go to Martin Camenietzki, who soloed the same weekend!
August into September 2008 flying
Instructor Joe Stubbs, writing about the end of August: "We had a busy weekend. Attached is a reasonably good photo I took of Janet Trost flying Sunday evening. During one of the last club flights of August 2008, Janet successfully flew in the setting sun in CXC with her instruments covered with post-it notes and wing tape."
SOSA Chief Flying Instructor John Brennan reports Saturday, September 6th: "Dave Springford says, 'Luke Szczepaniak and I had great soaring flights while the pundits on the ground said it wasn't a x-country day! Hah! Bald Eagle in a thermal and a sea breeze front on the same day, the soaring gods were smiling on Saturday'." John Brennan commented, "Dave flew Lake Ontario sea breeze while most of us wondered what all that low hanging cloud to the East meant. The season is not over yet."
SOSA Chief Flying Instructor John Brennan reports Saturday, September 6th: "Dave Springford says, 'Luke Szczepaniak and I had great soaring flights while the pundits on the ground said it wasn't a x-country day! Hah! Bald Eagle in a thermal and a sea breeze front on the same day, the soaring gods were smiling on Saturday'." John Brennan commented, "Dave flew Lake Ontario sea breeze while most of us wondered what all that low hanging cloud to the East meant. The season is not over yet."
Tuesday, September 02, 2008
SOSA Mudbowl Contest Results
During the Labour day weekend the annual SOSA Mudbowl contest was held. We had a total of 18 participants with 4 pilots visiting from Great Lakes and Toronto Soaring.
On Saturday, the contestants gridded with expectations of a reasonable soaring day, but due to the moisture in the ground, it took too long for things to heat up and the convection to start. The day was scrubbed at 1430. Eleven competitors decided to launch for practice and were able to fly locally for 2 -2 1/2 hours. They all agreed that is would not have been a contest day.
Sunday was the first contest day. The launch was started at 1300, after Ray Wood had been airborne in VS for an hour. The task was changed in the air before the gate opened to take advantage of the Cu that had formed to the north. The task and day scores are shown below (click on the score sheet to enlarge it). All the pilots had a tough time on Sunday and many were close to landing out several times during the flight. Although there were cu, they were not honest and many of them had little or no lift under them.
Monday was another contest day with better soaring then Sunday, but it was not without its challenges. About 35 km from the first turnpoint at St Marys, the cu ended and the sky was blue. Most pilots minimized their distance into the blue and turned as soon as they were within the 20 km zone. The second leg to Tillsonburg had a few wispy cu, but south of Tillsonburg near the Lake Erie shoreline there were large good looking cu. Most pilots made it to these cu and then ran back up to St George under the clouds. The leg back west to New Hamburg went blue again about halfway along. This combined with the slowly weakening sun slowed things down at the end of the day.
On Saturday, the contestants gridded with expectations of a reasonable soaring day, but due to the moisture in the ground, it took too long for things to heat up and the convection to start. The day was scrubbed at 1430. Eleven competitors decided to launch for practice and were able to fly locally for 2 -2 1/2 hours. They all agreed that is would not have been a contest day.
Sunday was the first contest day. The launch was started at 1300, after Ray Wood had been airborne in VS for an hour. The task was changed in the air before the gate opened to take advantage of the Cu that had formed to the north. The task and day scores are shown below (click on the score sheet to enlarge it). All the pilots had a tough time on Sunday and many were close to landing out several times during the flight. Although there were cu, they were not honest and many of them had little or no lift under them.
Monday was another contest day with better soaring then Sunday, but it was not without its challenges. About 35 km from the first turnpoint at St Marys, the cu ended and the sky was blue. Most pilots minimized their distance into the blue and turned as soon as they were within the 20 km zone. The second leg to Tillsonburg had a few wispy cu, but south of Tillsonburg near the Lake Erie shoreline there were large good looking cu. Most pilots made it to these cu and then ran back up to St George under the clouds. The leg back west to New Hamburg went blue again about halfway along. This combined with the slowly weakening sun slowed things down at the end of the day.
It seems that there has been a turn for the better in the weather patterns over the last few weeks and the flying conditions have been much better then experienced during the last half of July and first half of August. Hopefully this dry weather will hold for the remainder of the season. We still have at least 8 weeks of flying weather before the end of the season, so come on out and keep flying. Besides soaring flights, there are lots of other things that you can work on. Students can continue to work towards their first solo or license, licensed pilots can take up some aerobatic or unusual attitude training or work on progression through the fleet.
See you at the Airport!
ANNOUNCEMENT: SOSA Summer General Meeting
SOSA Gliding Club's 2008 Summer General Meeting will be held in the clubhouse starting at 7PM Saturday, September 20th. All members are invited to take part.
Joe Stubbs
Secretary, SOSA Gliding Club
Joe Stubbs
Secretary, SOSA Gliding Club
Friday, August 29, 2008
SOSA's K-21's in Progress at the factory
After the contest in Luesse, I had the opportunity to tour the Schleicher factory in Poppenhausen Germany and see SOSA's K-21's in production. The picture above shows one of our K-21 fuselages just after the two halves were glued together. The gentleman in the picture with me is Ulrich Kremer one of the company owners and grandson of Alexander Schleicher, the founder of the company,
Sunday, August 24, 2008
First solo, traditional ending
This is a great photo of the ending of Vlada Dekina's first gliding solo. Vlada, who recently came to SOSA, had prior experience as a power aerobatic pilot. She soloed on August 23rd, a little over a month after joining. Her first solo flight in the Blanik, her nineteenth on type, was uneventful ...
That is, until Andrea Kuciak showed up with the time honoured aviator's welcome to the ranks of pilot in command, involving a bucket of ice-cold water.
Congratulations Vlada, and may you enjoy many years of flying accomplishments at SOSA Gliding Club.
Sunday, August 10, 2008
Rain? What rain? A couple of dedicated guys - part 2
The year's wet weather is not a barrier to two SOSA pilots accomplishing milestones: a return to solo flying, and a multi-hour flight.
On Monday August 5th, Dave Simek (bottom photo) flew solo, returning to flying after many years away from soaring. A few days earlier, Poul Hansen (top photo) did his first five hour flight. Poul's flight is the second successful five hour duration flight from SOSA this season. The flight, often called the "silver duration", is part of the requirements for the FAI silver badge.
Dave says, " With the continual help and quality training from the instructors I was up to speed in no time. I found that if I was able to dedicate the time, then someone at the club most certainly was willing to accommodate. After 18 years of not flying I was not sure what to expect but the enthusiasm at SOSA is contagious. I showed up in late October of last year and talked to Dan Bush who said, 'this week should have a nice day. E-mail me if you can make it.'
We were out on the Wednesday for five flights as easy as that! After some more training, the next thing I know "thumbs up" and nobody in the back seat! Just amazing! Thanks Guys! "
Thursday, August 07, 2008
SOSA at the Worlds: Photo Page
Dave Springford, Jerzy Szemplinski and Joerg Stieber are at the Worlds in Germany at this writing. Maria Szemplinska has set up a photo page on the SAC website. View it here.
Wednesday, August 06, 2008
Tuesday, August 05, 2008
SOSA pilot arrives in Mennonite country
Sunday August 3rd, Herrie ten Cate departed on a cross-country flight. How did it work out? Herrie and his retrieve crew relate the story:
Nothing ventured nothing gained. The forecast looked promising and with Anthony Kawzowicz's coaching, I prepped the club's Jantar and took to the skies just after 11 on Sunday morning, for an attempted 500KM triangle. The task was Rockton - Flesherton - Thamesville - Rockton. I fought a strong headwind on my way north to Flesherton and then turned southwest towards Thamesville.
I was a little overconfident and was suckered into an aerial dance with a promising little thermic number that was all tease and no action. Needless to say, I was back down on the ground after three hours of airtime. I chose a cut barley field that was at least 4000-feet long ... so the outlanding was a piece of cake.
The highlight of the afternoon was meeting the curious on-lookers who stopped to gawk. I'd landed right beside a small county road. Three local Mennonite men parked up their bikes for a closer look. I showed them around and even let them sit in the cockpit. If circumstances were different for these guys, I'm sure, would love to learn how to glide.
I've promised to mail them a copy of the photo ... email and the Internet isn't part of their lexicon or lives. Needless to say, meeting these guys made landing out a great experience. My 500KM flight will have to wait for another day...
Les Waller and Rob Russell came up from SOSA to retrieve Herrie and the glider. Les said "Herrie picked what must be the biggest field in Ontario ----about 5000' long in my estimation----Whatever grew there had been harvested,
'could have easily put a Dak (DC-3) in it or something bigger even!
Nothing ventured nothing gained. The forecast looked promising and with Anthony Kawzowicz's coaching, I prepped the club's Jantar and took to the skies just after 11 on Sunday morning, for an attempted 500KM triangle. The task was Rockton - Flesherton - Thamesville - Rockton. I fought a strong headwind on my way north to Flesherton and then turned southwest towards Thamesville.
I was a little overconfident and was suckered into an aerial dance with a promising little thermic number that was all tease and no action. Needless to say, I was back down on the ground after three hours of airtime. I chose a cut barley field that was at least 4000-feet long ... so the outlanding was a piece of cake.
The highlight of the afternoon was meeting the curious on-lookers who stopped to gawk. I'd landed right beside a small county road. Three local Mennonite men parked up their bikes for a closer look. I showed them around and even let them sit in the cockpit. If circumstances were different for these guys, I'm sure, would love to learn how to glide.
I've promised to mail them a copy of the photo ... email and the Internet isn't part of their lexicon or lives. Needless to say, meeting these guys made landing out a great experience. My 500KM flight will have to wait for another day...
Les Waller and Rob Russell came up from SOSA to retrieve Herrie and the glider. Les said "Herrie picked what must be the biggest field in Ontario ----about 5000' long in my estimation----Whatever grew there had been harvested,
'could have easily put a Dak (DC-3) in it or something bigger even!
Monday, July 21, 2008
Thanks to a couple of dedicated guys
Dave Simek (left) mowing the grass in front of SOSA's clubhouse. It's great that Dave came out and pitched in on a non-flyable day, but here's the thing: it was raining cats and dogs at the time, plus he brought his own mower. Poul Hansen (right) got out the weed whacker and noise protection, and joined in the fun. SOSA runs on a lot of volunteer work, much of it everyday tasks such as these. Thanks to Dave, Poul and everyone of you who step up and take care of these otherwise thankless details.
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